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Creating a Data Driven Marketing Strategy

May 17, 202244:21

How big of a role does data play in your marketing strategy? This week, Andi Jarvis, Strategy Director at Eximo Marketing, walks us through his data strategy implementation framework and explains the importance of both talking to people and analyzing data in creating a solid marketing strategy. Listen as we chat marketing/sales alignment, B2B sales, and the 7 game-changing questions Jarvis asks every client.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

AW:

Hey, it’s April Williams, your host of the From Hello To Yes podcast. Today’s show is just fun. Are you in the mood to learn and laugh? Andi Jarvis is the founder and strategy director at Eximo Marketing, a UK based strategy consultancy. And he calls himself a boring marketer, but nothing about Andi is boring. He is committed to eliminating gut feeling marketing decisions and getting back to data proven strategy through his non-negotiable DSI framework. Data, strategy, and implementation. And if clients won’t start with data, then they’re not going to start with Andi. A bold, bold move that I admire. Together we will amend it over the gap that still exists between marketing and sales, but there’s hope with Andi’s approach to bridging that gap. I am sure it will work for your business too. Enjoy my conversation with Andi. Andi, thank you so much for joining us today. How are you?

AD:

I’m fine thank you April and thank you for having me. It’s an honor to be on the show.

AW:

Oh, we’re so glad. We always like to start out From Hello To Yes podcast with this question, it’s important to us that we all understand we’re so much better in the world of marketing and sales together than on our own, as this world is changing all the time. And we really want to be a place where the next generation of marketers and sales people will come and listen. So, I want to ask you, as you sit in a place of being a leader in the digital marketing space today, can you think back to when your career started and what would the Andi of today say to the 20 something version of Andi?

AD:

I’ve got four simple words. I suppose, first of all, it’s always a surprise to hear that I’m a leader in the industry. I don’t feel that way. I just feel like a guy who talks a lot. But that’s fine. So, my advice, so 41 year old Andi, I’ll give that away, to 20 year old Andi has four words of advice, which is don’t be an idiot. I think I wouldn’t be the first 20 something year old who was eager to get where they wanted to go, who wanted their career to move faster. Who wanted to be at the top, who wanted to be that guy who was there first and to be the first person to do well or to become a director and all that sort of stuff. And it’s the crime of youth or the passion of youth maybe.

And I think looking back to some of the way I behaved, maybe in my early 20s or some of the things I said to people and some of the ways I maybe tried to trample on some people along on the way up. Yeah, not necessarily my finest moment. And don’t be an idiot, might be good advice. And just, I think attached to that, I’d also have the second piece of advice, which is, don’t worry. Take your time. We always have a friend from university or from school who became a director at 25. Or the guy who set his own company up, or the girl who set their own company up and owned a million before they were 30. You seem to meet those people along the way and you think, or you see them on social media now and you think this is it. This is normal. It’s not. That’s really, really abnormal. And just take your time, build, go slowly, get there in the end. Don’t wait, but you’ll get there in the end. So, those two bits of advice, if I can have two, is where I’d go.

AW:

Brilliant. I love them. They’re perfect. And you might be a hashtag, just don’t be an idiot. I think that’s going to be one that sticks. I love that. Second question for you today is after being in marketing for 15 years, you decided to go back to school and get your MSC in marketing. And you admit that you have a great disdain, love this, for marketing guesswork. And you talk about your DSI process and your seven question marketing strategy that are non-negotiables. I want to chat about both. So, what is the DSI process you walk through with your clients before you would even work with them?

AD:

Gotcha. So, yeah, I like to refer to myself as a boring marketer. All about process, all about, based on academic theory. And it is. And there is a debate in the industry about is education worthwhile? Should you go to school? Should you get degrees, master’s degrees? And not for everybody. And I fully understand that. But I think you learn a lot if you go back and sharpen your pencil in that arena. So, I did. And I learned a lot about myself as well, and about marketing too. DSI stands for data, strategy, implementation, and that’s the process that I work with. Now I always say, “Most marketing starts in the I, in the implementation.” We just set off running because we have to get somewhere. We’ve got to do what we got to do.

Most marketing starts in the I. Great marketing starts at the D. You look at the data, you understand it. And the data is quo and quo. So, you know it’s the numbers, it’s the talking to people. I believe marketing’s a human discipline. It’s about talking to people. If you look at the logo of Eximo, my company, the dot of the I is rolled across toward the X. So, it looks like a person and that’s by design. It’s there to look like a person because marketing’s a human discipline. So, we talk to people. We look at data. And we use all of that to create strategy, which we then move through the S, the strategy process into I, the implementation. And by doing that, you give yourself a better chance, get you to marketing guesswork, or will do this on TikTok because it’ll work.

How do you know that? Oh, you should be on TV. Why? All these things that are, my favorite is Facebook doesn’t work for B2B. That is a current favorite. I hear it all the time. I’m like, based on what? Based on your gut feel. So, the DSI process is something that I developed, that I love. And that is kind of the whole mark of working with Eximo Marketing is you go through the DSI process. And if you don’t want to go through it, I don’t want to work with you. It’s a hard line like that, unfortunately, because I think you’re just setting up for failure and I don’t want to be involved in that. I’d rather be involved in going through the process and the things you find out and discover along the way, always, always involve a change of direction for the organization than what they were expecting.

And the seven questions framework that you mentioned is a structured way. If you imagine zooming into the data section, seven questions is the framework I use to go through it systematically so that we get all the data so that we can create a marketing strategy. I genuinely believe, and I believe it so much, I’m about 60% of the way through of writing a book called the 60 Minute Marketing Strategy, you can, I believe, create a marketing strategy for pretty much most organizations. And I say most, there’s a couple of caveats. But most organizations in 60 minutes. But you can only do it if you’ve been through the data process, which gets you to, we say, you’ve got all the information there at the time. But yeah, I think that’s what I believe you can do. And that’s because you have a process and you ask the questions in the right order.

AW:

So, give us a couple examples of the seven questions that you think are game changers for you.

AD:

Sure. So, the questions are, I’ll give you the structure. So, it starts at the pyramid shape and at the bottom of the pyramid of the two foundation stones of marketing. So, the company, what do you do as a company? And customer, who do you do it for? And I suppose on a basic level, you could almost describe marketing as a promotion, sorry, being the pipe between those two. What do you do as an organization? Who do you do it for? And the channels are just the pipe that connects those two foundation stones. So, a simplistic level, but those are the two. And when I run the seven questions workshop, half of it is spent answering those two. Looking at what’s your mission statement? What’s your vision? Where are you’re going? A lot of organizations have them.

They don’t particularly use them well. And it’s about understanding that so that we can use that. Especially, you think of, we talked before about your organization. You’ve got people in different time zones, in different places, in different cities. When you’re disconnected, when you’re working remotely, when someone’s off managing one social channel, but not managing the podcast. Or someone doing these different things, what is it that ties you all together? It’s the mission. So, you got to understand it. And it has to be driven through your company. So, that’s why we start there. And then customers, obviously, the other great part of that. Who are we doing it for? What problems are we solving? How do we do it? Those sorts of things. From there the next step up, we look externally, outside the organization, competition and context. Context changes a little bit. It can be about, depending on the sector, some sectors like in finance and banking.

There’s a lot of legal infrastructure around that. Other times it’s just about how is it done in this sector? And what you’re looking for in context is what are the conventions? Because once you know the conventions, you can understand how you can use them to your benefit or flick them around and subvert them. So, if you’re a small company trying to move into somewhere with a big player, you have to understand what the conventions are and how you can look like the plucky upstart against them. But sometimes if you’re number two and you’re trying to be the conventional number one, you have to understand what those conventions are, so you can look like that. So, we look externally there. Then we look internally, once we’ve done that to see content and, I’ve forgotten the word, resources. It all begins with the C and I’ve just had a complete mental blank there.

But what we’re looking at is if you’ve got the skills in house to be able to bring this alive, or if you’ve got the agency partnerships. So, then what content have you got and what stories and how do we connect all this together? And then right at the top of the point, we have capital, what are your objectives? How much money do you need to make? How many units do you need to sell on it? It’s called capital for a reason. It’s all starts with financial objectives and then builds back to marketing objectives after that. And the reason it’s in that order is when you get to the end and you look at those capital objectives, you can then stop and you can ask everybody in the room and go so, you’ve set an objective of doubling turnover in three years time. Looking at the resources that we have and looking at the stories you need to tell, looking at what the competition are doing and how we need to subvert the context of the industry and looking at the customers we’re looking to target and what you do as a company.

Do we have everything we need to be able to achieve that? And sometimes then you have that conversation like, no, we haven’t. We don’t have enough people to be able to deliver that. We haven’t got enough sales team. Okay. Let’s go back through it again and start again. So, you kind of keep going through the process again and again, and again, until you get to something everyone can buy into. And once you’ve got that, then you can move and go, okay. We’ve got all the information we need, let’s make the choices that we need in our strategy before we start implementing. I feel like I’ve given you a very long answer to that question there. So, I’m going to stop talking.

AW:

Great answer. And what I love about the answer and I love about the length of the answer is for anyone who’s coming out and listening and thinks marketing is just a quick answer. I mean, you said it, most people want to start at implementation without all that you just shared. And we wonder sometimes why marketing gets a bad rap. It’s because all that you just shared is so critical to the success of the implementation. And I love the hard line, if you don’t want to do it go somewhere else. I’m like, may we all be Andi like courageous, because that is the right answer. That is absolutely the right answer. But we tend to want to jump faster because there isn’t a patience often to do marketing right. So, I think that’s just so important.

AD:

I’ve learned from mistakes with that, by taking on bad fit clients, by taking on projects that the alarms were going off, the bells were ringing before I started and halfway through you just think there isn’t an amount of money in the world, you should be paying me to do this work. There’s a lot of battle scars under this t-shirt from working with clients. So, I haven’t always been that courageous and I haven’t always been that bold. But yeah, I think having a clarity to what you do really, really helps. So, yeah, and I’m all about process. And there’s a lot of marketing and a lot of marketers think that if you think of the four Ps, a lot of marketers will just think promotion is their job.

It’s not. Well, there’s more our discipline than that. And I think that we have so many marketers who just focus on promotion. That’s why we start to get a bad name because you hear things like, oh, you’re the coloring in department, or things like that. Or you hear people in the boardroom refer to as the grownups. But not the marketers, not in those terms. So, I think we probably need to take a broader view as an industry of what we do and maybe demonstrate the value of that a little bit better too.

AW:

Agree. And absolutely agree. And you started to actually touch on something I wanted to ask you about, because I found a blog that you wrote called Launch New Channels, Use Arm Work. And you actually quoted what we hear several of our clients saying is, well, Facebook isn’t for B2B or making some of these statements that get made. So, talk to us about what arm work is as we start looking at the right channels.

AD:

Gotcha. Right. And look, if you’ve been in marketing for any length of time, somebody, usually someone quite senior in your organization has walked over to you and said, my son uses this channel. And if you’re old, it might have been Myspace. And if you’re young, it’s probably TikTok. But it’s been everything between that as well. And so my son uses this channel, why aren’t we using it? And you got to have an answer to that. And the answer should be, oh my goodness. But you can’t say that because it’s usually someone senior in your organization. So, is just a simple framework to be able to decide if you should be using a channel, sense of audiences, resource and metric. That’s it. Is your audience on that channel? If they’re not move away from it. If they are, move on. Have you got the resource?

And this is usually where you can get stuck resource can mean time or money. My favorite when Snapchat first launched and the videos got to be a certain length. And I think it was 10 seconds initially on Snapchat. And I mean it’s only 10 second videos, why don’t we just shoot them? Do you know how long a 10 second video takes to shoot? It’s not 10 seconds. It might be when you’re sending a Snapchat to your friend. Corporate Snapchat’s different. Doesn’t take 10 seconds to shoot a 10 second video. But also if you haven’t got the time, do you have the money? Have you got an agency? Have you got the partners? All those bits. If you can tick that, move on to metrics. What does good look like? What is your measure of success? And this is usually the point that you get stuck. It’s like, oh we want more likes, shares. No, what’s that business metric that starts with a currency symbol, a dollar sign, a pound sign of Euro sign? And yeah, I get sometimes it’s brand building that’s okay. Brand building’s good. How are we measuring that?

AW:

Yeah, it’s so good. And I think that’s, love the simplicity of how you walk someone through making some of those decisions. And even some of the answers from an agency perspective is does your team even have the bandwidth to add another channel? Like even allowing that to be the right conversation. So, I just thought it was brilliant. Really, really smart.

AD:

Thank you. And I mean, you mentioned about, have you got the bandwidth? There’s a line in there in that blog where I talk about the etymology of decide. So, the word decide has suffix cide, C-I-D-E, which you’ll find in suicide, pesticide, homicide, all these sorts of words. And if you go back to its Latin origin, it means to kill. So, decide means to kill something effectively. Now, not people. You have to kill something. So, when you’re making strategic decisions, strategy is about making choices. So, you can decide, you can say, right, should we launch TikTok? Your audience is there. You’ve got good metrics, it makes sense, but you haven’t got the bandwidth. So, you can spend money and bring in a person to manage that, bring in an agency to run it for you. Or you can kill something.

We’re going to stop doing Facebook to allow us to do TikTok. And it’s that sort of decision that doesn’t get made in companies. They just keep adding on and adding on and adding on. We need to be on this channel. We need to be on this channel. We need to be on this channel. And nobody’s ever going, we got to kill this because what happens is you just end up doing everything badly. And if you’re doing everything badly, you’re not actually helping anything. So, that strategic choice is always a difficult one that people often sidestep really.

AW:

I think that’s such a great point because there’s only so much time we have. So, I loved that for our readers, even our listeners to find that blog too called yeah, making a decision to launch a channel, using the arm approach.

Speaker 3:

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AW:

Shifting gears on you a little bit. I know this is a topic that you feel strongly about as do I. For many years, I have had a heart for marketing and sales to be aligned. And it’s why I created SalesAmp in the first place. But I created that in 2010. So, honestly, Andi, I would’ve thought this would’ve been a non-topic in 2021. And if not why are we still here? And we see this with so many of our clients and it’s really that you call it in one of your blogs or on your website, an uncomfortable relationship, which is kind. Because I think it’s even worse than that. Why do you think this is still such a struggle?

AD:

I think if we can book in another podcast in 2031, we can cover this ground again because it’s not a problem that’s going away anytime soon. And yeah, why isn’t it going away? A couple of reasons I think. So, sales people have an easier to measure role, I think. And most organizations run on some sort of quarterly financial reporting basis, which then spins down to daily, weekly, monthly reports for teams. When you’re doing some marketing work, if you’re doing SEO, SEO isn’t, it’s a square peg going in or a round hole of a daily, weekly, monthly reporting cycle. Yes, you can measure in some in eCommerce companies, particularly on keyword, leading to organic traffic, to whatever. But outside eCommerce tracking SEO in those ways can be quite difficult. If you’re doing brand campaigns, all that lands, particularly in a quarterly report is a massive spend with very little you can draw a straight line to. So, sales goes, oh, well we spent this and we made this. And marketers are like, well the brand awareness does X, Y, and Z.

And it might do this and it might … Now the companies where they get this right, they don’t have that argument because the sales team know when they lift the phone or when they’re tear up the sales 60% done because the brand gets a lot of that over the line. But when you’re just starting out in this world, what it looks like is marketing’s a cost. And so I hear it all the time marketing, you spend the money sales, we make the money. And that even if it’s setting jest tends to lead to a little bit of friction, when the targets missed, oh, how do we save money? Get rid of marketing. Marketers then get defensive. When people get defensive, you rarely in a good place to start doing good things. So, I often think there’s an issue of marketers don’t discuss their benefits well.

They don’t measure what they’re doing particularly well. Proper measuring of marketing activity doesn’t take place anywhere outside some of the biggest companies in the world. And even then when you see how they report on it, they maybe not doing it right either. Sales teams are quite insular sometimes. Sales people tend to want to kill their own a lot of the time to get onto another lead. It’s like, I want that one. I want that one. So, sales teams are quite competitive. So, that coworking doesn’t quite exist. I also think there’s a managerial problem is that, and it goes back to that mission. If you don’t clearly define that everyone’s approaching and attacking the same mission, people start setting KPIs or OKRs that are slightly different and you’re in a different place. So, I’ll give you one really, really simple example.

I’m working with a company at the moment where the sales team targets are defined monthly and the marketing’s team’s targets are defined quarterly. So, sometimes marketing activity has a three month window because we’re looking to do something towards that. But the sales team are getting kicked and kicked and kicked if they missed their monthly target. So, the sales team because of their targets are set at a different cadence to everybody else’s, they’d think that the marketing team don’t care what they’re doing. They do, but they only have to hit a quarterly target, not a monthly target. So, that poor management decision leads to sales and marketing clashing heads again. And there’s lots of little things along the way and steps that we could take to try and resolve those issues. But I think it needs to start with marketing sales and the C-suite sitting down together and going, how do we make this better? And I think that’s a utopian dream that’s probably not going to happen.

AW:

And I love that you called it out strongly on your site and you talked about the need for marketing and sales to get aligned. So, that was really one of my other questions following up is, are there one or two key things? You talked about getting aligned, sitting around the table, are there other … And you talked about having some of the measurements, at least be on the same cadence because you’re absolutely right. That’s off. What else would you say to people that you’re out at a pub and someone finds out what you do and they say well our marketing and sales people hate each other. What would you say to them?

AD:

So, my number one bit of advice is to go and talk to them. And now to be honest, I feel like a broken record, because this is my number one bit of advice for every marketing problem, anywhere in the world. Doesn’t matter what it is just go and talk to the people involved. And distributed teams makes this difficult. Working from home makes this difficult, different offices, different cities makes it difficult. And I know it can be difficult, but if in the absence of being able to go meet the people face to face and meeting them in pubs, sales teams love pubs. They just love them. It’s where the truth serum gets supplied to people. And you tell them all the real things. But in the absence of meeting people face to face, pick up the phone and talk to somebody because it’s hard to be really, really annoyed with someone who you know. You have that conversation and you have a heart to heart.

And so many times you said that the marketing team is saying what these sales are doing this. And as a consultant, you have this beautiful approach. You can come in and you can go, well, I’m just going to go and talk to people and get a little bit of a handle on this. And the number of times I’ll talk to sales teams and they’ll be like, oh, nobody from marketing’s ever been down here before. In how long? Ever. Yeah. Right. Okay. That’ll be lovely then. So, talk to people. Understand their problems and find a way of working together because eight out of 10 of their problems will be eight out of 10 of your problems too. You might talk about them slightly differently. So, my number one bit of advice is go and talk to your sales team. Don’t wait for the sales team to come and talk to you.

They’re not. As marketers, get off your bum, go and talk to the sales team. Don’t send them a Slack message. Don’t send them an email. Don’t WhatsApp them. Go and talk to them in person. If it means getting on a flight and going out and going for a couple of drinks and dinner with them, if you can do it, do it. You’d be amazed at what happens. And that’s the number one way of marketing and sales can align is by talking to each of the first. That’s where I’m getting into all the technicalities and stuff, but that’s the best way.

AW:

But that’s so simple, but it’s interesting as marketers, we are supposed to be communication people and relational. So, smart. I mean, yes. And so I think that’s an easy one and especially the year and a half we’re coming off of, there’s probably less and less talking to one another. So, really igniting that. I love that, Andi.

AD:

Good. So, when you do Teams meetings or Zoom meetings, the small talk disappears. Or there’s a very short window for small talk at the beginning while you’re waiting for Harry to dial into the call or whatever it is. So, you’ve got like 30 seconds of, oh yeah. Hi April. Hi, great. How’s the dog. Oh yeah. Right. Harry’s here. Boom. There you go. And the work gets done, but you don’t get to know the person. And at some point in marketing and sales alignment, stuff’s going to go wrong. And stuff’s going to go right. But you need to be able to lift the phone up to April and go, April hi.

Now the fact that we spent 25 minutes, once talking about your dog or your surfing holiday or whatever it is, builds that connection. So, that when I ring you at 05:20 on a Friday evening, because I’ve got a problem and I need your help to solve it, you are not going to look at your phone and go, oh, Andi. Nah, that’ll wait till Monday. You’ll go, oh it’s Andi. I’ll answer that. You’ll help out. And then we are connected and we are aligning personally, which helps us align professionally. And it’s a people discipline. And I think we miss it.

AW:

And I think that ties when I was following you and watching some of your podcasts and reading your blogs, it struck me. You are a people person. This comment comes up over and over and I’m going to bring it up again in a different way. Because you say at its heart marketing is a people business, but you share, unfortunately this seems to be lost on many B2B companies. SalesAmp works primarily with B2B companies. So, bring it on Andi, talk to us about the misalignment in the B2B companies as we forget that this is a people business.

AD:

Well look B2B in my eyes doesn’t mean business to business. It means boring to boring. And you know what I’m talking about? You’ve seen it. You go to a trade show, there are 250 identically bad stands that have B2B vendor listing a whole list of features of their product, too many bullet points on slides, kill kittens. Every time there’s a bullet point on a slide a kitten dies somewhere around the world. But you go to a B2B conference and someone stands on stage their first slide and here are 20 bullet points that I’m going to bore you stupid about. And it’s always a guy called Brian and he’s always like, oh dear Lord, please stop. This is what B2B marketing is like, it’s like, let me show you my really interesting features of my product.

Good Lord. No. So, B2B marketing … And I get why it all comes from a good place. It happens. Shit marketing happens for a good reason. And that’s all I’m saying. And B2B market is particularly often selling complex products. And you’re in a competitive field and sometimes a lot of B2B has quite a big ticket attached to it. So, you want to show confidence in a technical sale. So, you’ve got a technical sales team selling a technical product to technical people. And you go, yeah, great. So, then they list their 25 best features and then they list two features that no other product’s got. And then they go, look at our feature list. Isn’t this impressive. But you talk to me and you go, right. This is really, really interesting. And I don’t understand what any of these 25 things mean, but you understand it.

Yes. And your customer understands it. Yes. Okay. Brilliant. And how much is the purchase price for this? And you know, it could be say, I don’t know. But let’s say medium price, $50,000 for the year or something like that. And it’s 50,000 annually recurring revenue. Okay. Brilliant. How many companies signup for $50,000 spend without it going through procurement? None. Great. Okay. Does anyone in procurement know what language you are talking on that poster? No. Okay. Right. Does the MD sign off some of these as well when it’s that sort of 50,000 and above? Yeah. Yeah. Has to go a board meeting. Great. Does everybody in the board meeting understand what you’re talking about. Head shake all round. Great. So, step one of your sales process. You’re talking the language to those people. Yeah. But you’re not talking to the gatekeepers who are going to get you into the board meeting and you’re not talking to any of the non-execs at the board meeting who are going to sign that off.

Yeah. Great. Can we just cut out all the boring. It needs to be there to an extent to get you through the door, but it shouldn’t be everything you do. People are buying your products at the end of the day. It’s not robots clicking buttons to say, yes, we’ll buy. Yes, we’ll buy. We’re not there yet. People are buying your products. So, if people are buying your products, why not market to them? And I’ve heard people call it, it’s not B2B or B2C. It’s human to human. That sort of thing makes my skin itch a little bit. But I think B2B, let’s bring the people back into it. The people making purchasing decisions and these people don’t stop being a procurement manager, B2B firm or they don’t stop being an engineer or a software engineer just because they’ve gone home at five o’clock and they’re scrolling through Facebook.

If you’ve been putting these people into your sales funnel, at some point, they’ll still be in your sales funnel at nine o’clock at night, when they’re looking to see what their daughter’s doing when she’s traveling around the world or when they’re catching up with their cousin, who live somewhere else. Facebook does work if you get it in the right place in your funnel for B2B. But it’s just, we need to bring some of that consumer thinking into B2B marketing, I think could probably take some of the B2B structure into consumer marketing too. But I do like bringing the consumer thinking and the emotional elements of the campaigns in there and sort of simple language that everyone can understand. So, yeah. Boring to boring, it could become my life’s crusade to try and change it. But I think I might have to live until I’m 300 to change it.

AW:

That’s such bad news. That’s such bad news. We need to change it faster than that, Andi, for sure.

AD:

But look, it’s an endless challenge. Isn’t it? And look at engineers in B2B companies and product people they’re really, really important. I would probably say that their importance is higher than marketing or they’ve managed to find themselves a place in B2B organizations where their importance is so essential to the whole thing. Marketers in a lot of companies are still trying to work their way up to that level of influence. And without that, it’s always a downstream service where products tell you, these are the important things. You tell everybody about that. And I think if we can get a seat at that table at that decision making table, which again, the biggest, the best B2B companies, marketing sits at that table.

The ones where you see it happening really badly marketing is a department that gets past things to market. Can you market this for me? No. You mean promote not market. And by that time, if that’s happening in your organization, you have already lost. Bring marketing in, get them to have a seat at that table and bake it in from the beginning. And that’s how you get rid of boring to boring.

AW:

It’s good. It’s really good. I know you have a podcast yourself. You’re talking to a lot of interesting people. You yourself are always out writing about what’s coming up in our future. What has you the most excited about marketing today?

AD:

I want to give you a really positive, upbeat answer to this. And I feel like all the answers I could think of are relatively negative. But I think the rapid improvements in attribution modeling are going to be big for marketing. So, at the minute, if you’re listening to this and you go, what’s he on about with attribution modeling, pay per click marketers found a way of measuring how successful ad campaigns were, which was last click attribution. Which probably 10 to five years ago was the only really way of doing it at any scale. And last click attribution was great for pay per click marketers in convincing people to give them more budget. Not particularly great for everybody else. And actually you could drive a coach in horses through the methodology. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s a bit shit to be honest with you. So, yeah, but we moved away from that.

And the problem was that to do anything better than last click attribution just took huge amounts of budget. And some massive companies like Diagio, the drinks company built their own monitoring platform and there was a lot of econometrics and things like that. But unless you worked in a Fortune 100 company or you don’t call it the Fortune 100 is the London index. What’s the US version of Dow Jones. Is that what it’s called?

AW:

Dow Jones.

AD:

Or Fortune 500?

AW:

Fortune 500, for sure. Yes.

AD:

Yeah. So, if you weren’t in a Fortune 500 company, you didn’t have the budget to get involved in any of this. And even if you were a Fortune 500, you might not have had the budget. It cost fortunes. Time goes on. Technology changes. Data becomes more available. We’ve seen the changes with the EU and GDPR and the changes to third party cookies. All of this is kind of shaking everything up. And now there’s some big brains in the industry looking at how do we measure? How do we monitor? How do we understand if a campaign’s been a success. And they’re getting better and better, they’re not there yet. We’re still in the very early stages. We’re in the stone age of monitoring and measurement. But I think over the coming five years, we’ll see a number of advances that will be open to initially largest businesses, enterprise size, but then we’ll come down to large and mediums and eventually small businesses.

And I think marketing should be able to monitor itself better and prove its return a lot better over the next decade. And that’s quite an exciting thing I think for markets is to be able to do in a much more in depth way, which gets them into those senior discussions with the grownups in the organization. We can prove what we do now. It’s not just pretty, it’s pretty and effective.

AW:

That would be perfect.

AD:

Oh God, I would love it. Absolutely love it.

AW:

Our From Hello To Yes final question is what has you stumped today and who, what and where are you going to for answers?

AD:

Ooh, well, that question has me stumped. That’s my first answer. I suspect I’m not the first guest to answer in that way either. What has me stumped? Lots of things. So, I’ll be honest with you. One of the interesting things I find when I consult. So, my business is a consultancy. We don’t do ongoing … We kind of come in solve problems, leave again. That tends to be the model anyway. And what I noticed is that we are brought in often to give people all the answers. And in my desk drawer here, my magic wand was stolen many years ago and I don’t have it anymore. So, I don’t have this magic wand that gives me all the answers to all the questions. So, I’m expected to understand everything. And I’m, like I said, I’ve been around a long time, sort of 20 years or so in marketing.

And I would consider myself quite T-shaped. So, I’ve got quite a broad understanding of a lot of things and quite a deep understanding of strategy and a couple of other bits in bobs. But you go into places and people come with quite a technical SEO question and go, so what’s the answer. I don’t know. Or look at this PPC work. What do you think? Great, I think. Or I’m flashed a design for the new outdoor campaign or someone will show me the storyboards for the TV. I’m like, great, what’s your input? I’m like, it looks nice. So, there’s a lot of things like that, that I don’t quite have the answers to. So, I kind of have a lot of questions to try not deflect that, but to set the expectation that I’m not going to be able to answer everything like that.

And I tell people, I come with questions, I don’t come with answers because we’re trying to tap into the brains in your organization to co-create this together. So, there’s lots of things in marketing that stumped me a lot of the time. And I think probably the one thing that stumps me most is how to rapidly grow a brand new site from scratch because it’s often a discussion of do we build it onto this? Do we start from scratch? And I read case study after case study, I read some of the great digital markets particularly, about how they got their site to a million visitors in six months and they did it like this and did it like that. And they give you a playbook of how to go. And we’ve looked at that playbook and we followed that playbook and we didn’t get to a million in six months.

Sometimes I look and go, is it just look or is it no, did I not do it right? So, they’re probably why people think I know everything. That’s one of the things that stumps me. And how you aggressively grow a brand new site, stumps me quite a lot as well. Where do I go for answers? I’m often on Twitter @AndiJarvis, Andi with an I. Come on, follow me. I love to chat. I love to have strong opinions on things and then change them later when I’ve been told that I’m wrong about things. But I go to Twitter and I spend about 10% of my time in the business period of time, if you’d call that. Not me just reading before bed. Keeping up to date with things that change in the industry, reading blogs, listening to podcasts, watching videos, reading books sometimes, How Brands Grow is a book behind me up there.

And that’s in the business time, because I think it’s important to try and stay abreast of what’s happening and what’s changing. I feel I’ve maybe fudged my answer to your question a little bit, but I read a lot. I watch a lot. I listen a lot and I do that on the clock in the company, as well as out of that as well, because I think it’s important that you try and stay abreast and keep those things going.

AW:

I think it’s one of the most comprehensive answers I’ve ever gotten, so well done.

AD:

Is that a polite way of saying I talked far too much in that answer?

AW:

That is not, I think you answered it brilliantly. And I love the fact is why do people expect me to know everything. That one’s going to stick with me too, because you’re right. I love that. Why do people expect us to know everything? That’s a good…

AD:

It is. I think there’s a misunderstanding isn’t there of sometimes of what marketing … It’s such a broad term marketing, isn’t it? I do marketing, graphic designers do marketing, performance marketers do marketing. There’s lots of different types of marketer. So, and a lot of marketers don’t necessarily understand the term marketing. So, to expect that people in operations are or C-suite understand it is too much. So, I get why people do it, but I’m like, oh, I just pull faces a lot of the time and go.

AW:

That’s perfect. So, Andi, thank you so much. Great insights, really fun chat. You mentioned Twitter as a place where our listeners could connect and follow you. Where else could they find you?

AD:

LinkedIn and Twitter are probably the two best places. I spell Andi an odd way. A-N-D-I rather than A-N-D-Y. So, Andi Jarvis, if you look for me on LinkedIn, I’m one of those people I connect with anyone. So, just send me a connection request. I do mention that you heard me on this podcast, because it’s always nice to know. And Twitter are probably where I spend most of my time and you can find the business on Instagram, Eximo Marketing E-X-I-M-O. And yeah, Instagram there. We have a Facebook page, but nobody uses it. And when it comes to killing things, that’s the next thing for us to kill.

AW:

Very good. On behalf of From Hello To Yes, Andi, thank you again for joining us today.

AD:

April, thank you for having me. It’s been a ride. Thank you.

AW:

I just loved how Andi was a no nonsense, get-it-done-right guy. His approach to using a data proven strategy through his non-negotiable DSI framework was a great reminder for all of us in marketing and his ability to know what has to happen and being clear, if clients don’t want to start with data, then they can’t start with Andi. Bam, that is really, really bold and really, really good. So, if you are the one at your company responsible for marketing and want to eliminate gut feelings, you’re welcome.

As Andi mentioned, you can follow him on Twitter and LinkedIn, but did you know he also hosts his own podcast? Yes. Go like and subscribe to the Strategy Sessions Marketing podcast, where you’ll hear more great straight talk from Andi. And don’t forget all of the resources mentioned today can be found in our show notes on the salesamp.com podcast page, along with other episodes. So, that’s a wrap. Remember in this fast paced world of marketing and sales, we are better together. Thanks for joining us today on From Hello To Yes. Hope you’ll join us again soon. Have a good one.

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